My mom sent me an e-mail where she brought up some good points and questions about the birth certificates that I posted the other day for Anna Rosina Ott and Franz Josef Ott:
"I didn't think anything of the different formats of the birth certificates the Spohr family had for Anna Rosina Ott and Franz Josef Ott (my own children's birth certificates are different formats for the ones born in different states). But then we went to the Czech Republic, and found the birth records for Anna Rosina and Franz Josef in the same book, just eleven pages apart (that may sound like a lot, but there were something like 7 or 8 entries per page, and they were only born 3 years apart). It is very interesting that the format of the birth certificate for Franz Josef is very close to that of the birth record in the Zettlitz Parish book, with columns for birthdate, baptism date, name, father, mother, religion, legitimate or illegitimate, etc. He was legitimate and both the column on the birth certificate and the column in the Zettlitz birth record book state he was legitimate. Anna Rosina's birth certificate is a completely different format. It is more in the format of a letter (that reads top to bottom) than the column format of Franz Josef's birth certificate and both of their birth records in the parish book. On her birth certificate, there is no spot that asks if the child was legitimate or not. I believe this is why the two birth certificates look so different. The two certificates were both issued on the same date by the same person, Dad pointed.
I was thinking that there was a likely chance that Anna Marie really was Anna Rosina, as you stated in your post, but there is another piece of information we have (beside the fact that Anna Marie told Beverly Spohr that she was a twin and had twins). In the census records from the U.S., Anna Strunz Ott states she has five children, three living. We have no record of Anna Marie in the parish record, but we did not find any other children born to Anna Strunz and Josef Ott. Now it is not just a mystery about Anna Marie, where are the two missing birth records?
The godmother of Anna Rosina was Rosina Behm, wife of the worker (paid by the day) Franz Behm. The godparents of Franz Josef were Franz and Rosina Böhm. I believe these were the same people. Both children had the same name as the godparents. Were they named after the godparents? Were the godparents close relatives? Is it possible that Rosina Böhm was Anna Strunz's married sister? The thing that makes me wonder that is a letter our family has that Anna received when she was in the U.S. I thought before it was a letter to Anna Marie Ott, and it says "...my greatest joy would be if you would come and see us...your sister Rosa would enjoy that." I thought possibly it referred to Anna Marie Ott Spohr, and 'your sister Rosa' was Anna Rosina Ott. But later in the letter it says "We had written to your daughter Anna once, but we had never heard from her." We know Anna Marie Ott did not have a daughter Anna, so it all fits together that this letter is written to Anna Strunz Ott, her daughter referred to in the letter is Anna Marie Ott Spohr (my great grandmother), and Anna Strunz Ott has a sister named Rosa. I am thinking it is a great possibility that this is Rosina Böhm. I am going to follow that lead.
Do you think it is a mistranslation, or do you think that Rosina and Franz Böhm were both godparents of Franz Josef Ott, but only Rosina Böhm was godmother to Anna Rosina Ott? Maybe a mistranslation, or could it have anything to do with the illegitimate birth?
One last item, at least for now. Do you think the dates on the Ott birth certificates are a clue to when they came to the U.S.? I thought perhaps they got the documentation for immigration, and to prove identity once in the U.S. I am puzzled because the date written in at the bottom of both birth certificates is 14 April 1890, but near the top left of both documents there is one stamp or seal on Anna Rosina's and two stamps or seals on Franz Josef's that say '25 kr' in the center and then 1888 at the bottom of the stamp/seal. (According to Wikipedia, the kreuzer/kreutzer, abbreviated kr “was a silver coin and unit of currency existing in the Southern German states prior to the unification of Germany, and in Austria”. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kreuzer#Austria-Hungary_1857-1892). If it is a stamp, why would it be two years earlier than the dates at the bottom when the documents were 'given of the Minister's Office from Lettlitz (this should be Zettlitz) on 14 April 1890' (translation from Franz Josef's birth certificate) and 'given by the priest of Zettlitz on 14 April 1890' (translation from Anna Rosina's birth certificate)? Here’s Dad’s [Steven Chidester] thoughts: In 1888, the price for the birth certificate was established at 50 kr for the first and 25 kr for the second (or vice versa) and the stamps were issued with the 1888 date when price was established. The price was still the same when they requested birth certificates in 1890. When you requested a birth certificate and paid for it, the stamp was affixed to show it had been paid for. Is there any way we can have the stamp/seal translated, the purple seal at the bottom translated, the tiny writing at the bottom of Anna Rosina's and on the far right hand side of Franz Josef's birth certificates translated? There is a signature (I think, or maybe it is just some note) to the right of each of the purple seals that looks like Czech writing to me. It has what looks like a tiny backward 'c' above the middle of the word and an accent mark above the end of the word. It looks very much like the markings in Czech writing. How could that be? Maybe I am wrong. Or maybe they were in a town that spoke Czech and German then. Do you have any thoughts on this? Dad and I looked more at the writing next to the purple seal. We are pretty sure it is the signature of the chaplain that issued the certificates in 1890, with his title “kaplan” written underneath. This appears to be the same word translated as chaplain on Anna Rosina’s birth certificate. We cannot read his name, but we both think it looks like Czech writing because of the accent marks."
Showing posts with label Böhm/Behm. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Böhm/Behm. Show all posts
21 November 2009
Czech Records: Franz Josef Ott
And here is the record for Josef Ott and Anna Strunz’s son, Franz Josef Ott. Franz Josef Ott, who went by Frank or ‘Frankie’ after coming to America, was Anna Marie Ott Spohr’s younger brother.
“District Eger Register Book VI Page 79
District Karlsbad Number 224 no[?]
Birthplace Putschirn N. 15
Baptismal Certificate
Day, Month, and Year of
Birth Baptism
9 June 10 June
In the year 1877
seventy seven
Name
of the baptismal witness Of the child
Anton Weigl, Ca____[occupation] Franz Joseph
Religion
Catholic
Legitimate or Illegitimate
Legitimate
Father
Josef Ott, Miller from Kohling N 69 old/6 new. Legitimate son of Ignaz Ott, Cottager in Kohling N 69 and Johanna nee Meisner from Kolhing N 29.
Mother
Anna nee Strunz from Imligau N 8 Elbogen district. Legitimate daughter of Anton Strunz, Cottager in Putschirn N 15 and Katharina nee Möckl from Imligau.
Godparents
Franz and Rosina Böhm ___ ___ in Putschirn
Midwife
Anna Wayberger[?] ___ ___
Given of the Minister’s Office from Lettlitz on 14 April 1890.”
Franz Josef Ott
Czech Birth Records, Book VI Putschirn, page 79
Photographs IMG_0523 through IMG_0527, and IMG_592 through IMG_0600
Photographs of birth records taken by Steven and Amy Chidester in the Czech Republic in February 2008 (copies of photographs in the possession of Stephanie Chidester Bradshaw). Translated on 21 May 2008 by Sister Gunhild Stefano who offered a weekly German translation service at the family history center in the Milwaukee first ward building of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in Brookfield, Wisconsin. Transcribed by Stephanie Bradshaw.
"Born 9 June 1877, Baptized 10 June 1877, [name of pastor], name of child: Franz Josef, Catholic, Male, Legitimate,
Place and House Number: Putschirn Number 15
Midwife: Anna Wurzberger in Altrohlau [or Altrenlau?] testified
Father: Josef Ott a miller from Kohling Number 69 old/6 new, the legitimate son of Ignaz Ott a cottager in Kohling Number 69 and Johanna born Meisner of Kohling Number 29.
Mother: Anna Strunz from Imligau Number 8 in the district Elbogen, the legitimate daughter of the deceased Anton Strunz a home owner in Putschirn Number 15 and Katharina born Möckl from Imligau.Witnesses: Franz and Rosina Böhm in Putschirn, ___? married couple”
Czech Birth Records, Book VI Putschirn, page 79
Photographs IMG_0523 through IMG_0527, and IMG_592 through IMG_0600
Photographs of birth records taken by Steven and Amy Chidester in the Czech Republic in February 2008 (copies of photographs in the possession of Stephanie Chidester Bradshaw). Translated on 21 May 2008 by Sister Gunhild Stefano who offered a weekly German translation service at the family history center in the Milwaukee first ward building of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in Brookfield, Wisconsin. Transcribed by Stephanie Bradshaw.
"Born 9 June 1877, Baptized 10 June 1877, [name of pastor], name of child: Franz Josef, Catholic, Male, Legitimate,
Place and House Number: Putschirn Number 15
Midwife: Anna Wurzberger in Altrohlau [or Altrenlau?] testified
Father: Josef Ott a miller from Kohling Number 69 old/6 new, the legitimate son of Ignaz Ott a cottager in Kohling Number 69 and Johanna born Meisner of Kohling Number 29.
Mother: Anna Strunz from Imligau Number 8 in the district Elbogen, the legitimate daughter of the deceased Anton Strunz a home owner in Putschirn Number 15 and Katharina born Möckl from Imligau.Witnesses: Franz and Rosina Böhm in Putschirn, ___? married couple”
And like his older sister, Anna Rosina, we have a birth certificate for Franz Josef Ott that has been passed down in the family:
German family document 002
Spohr family documents in the possession of Beverly Monk Spohr of Lee’s Summit, Missouri as of 2006. Scanned copies of the documents are in possession of Stephanie Chidester Bradshaw [numbers were assigned to each document by Stephanie Bradshaw in order to keep track of which translation referred to each document]. Translated and transcribed on 14 February 2008 by Stephanie Bradshaw.
Spohr family documents in the possession of Beverly Monk Spohr of Lee’s Summit, Missouri as of 2006. Scanned copies of the documents are in possession of Stephanie Chidester Bradshaw [numbers were assigned to each document by Stephanie Bradshaw in order to keep track of which translation referred to each document]. Translated and transcribed on 14 February 2008 by Stephanie Bradshaw.
“District Eger Register Book VI Page 79
District Karlsbad Number 224 no[?]
Birthplace Putschirn N. 15
Baptismal Certificate
Day, Month, and Year of
Birth Baptism
9 June 10 June
In the year 1877
seventy seven
Name
of the baptismal witness Of the child
Anton Weigl, Ca____[occupation] Franz Joseph
Religion
Catholic
Legitimate or Illegitimate
Legitimate
Father
Josef Ott, Miller from Kohling N 69 old/6 new. Legitimate son of Ignaz Ott, Cottager in Kohling N 69 and Johanna nee Meisner from Kolhing N 29.
Mother
Anna nee Strunz from Imligau N 8 Elbogen district. Legitimate daughter of Anton Strunz, Cottager in Putschirn N 15 and Katharina nee Möckl from Imligau.
Godparents
Franz and Rosina Böhm ___ ___ in Putschirn
Midwife
Anna Wayberger[?] ___ ___
Given of the Minister’s Office from Lettlitz on 14 April 1890.”
Czech Records: Anna Rosina Ott
Now I will post the records that were found for two of Josef Ott and Anna Strunz’ children, Anna Rosina Ott and Franz Josef Ott.
We have a rather interesting conundrum with my 2nd great grandmother, Anna Marie Ott Spohr, and her sister, Anna Rosina Ott. From our family history that was passed down through the family, we knew that Anna Marie was a twin. Anna Marie came here to the United States, but I always wondered if her twin sister, Anna Rosina, stayed in Europe, or may have possibly also come to America. And before Anna Marie had my great grandfather, Carl John Spohr, she had twin boys who were stillborn. (I always wondered about the possibility of me having twins, since I knew that twins ran on both my mother’s and my father’s side of the family – with the Otts and Spohrs on my mom’s side; and with my dad’s father, John Leo Chidester, being a twin himself – and on Michael’s side of the family, with his uncles being twins). And my mom said that her mother, Beverly Monk Spohr, specifically remembers Anna Marie Ott Spohr (who she and my grandpa both referred to as ‘Grandma Spohr’) telling her that she was a twin herself, and that she also had twins.
When I was first starting to do genealogy years ago, I remember finding different spellings and name variations for Anna Marie’s and her twin sister’s names on handwritten family notes. At one point I had recorded that one sister was named Anna Marie, and the other was named Marie Anna. And another spelling I found for the twin sister’s name was Anna Rosean. But when I found the old German records at my grandparent’s house, I knew I had found the correct spelling for my great, great grandmother’s twin sister’s name, it was very clearly written on an official birth/baptismal certificate: Anna Rosina Ott. And her birth date was the same as Anna Marie’s, so it had to be her, the twin sister. It didn’t seem odd, either, that my family had this birth certificate, even though Anna Rosina was not our direct ancestor, because they also had a similar birth certificate for Franz Josef Ott, Anna’s younger brother. So it was reasonable that they kept copies of the birth certificates of their siblings. Unfortunately, there wasn’t a birth certificate for Anna Marie, and I just figured that her certificate had been lost or destroyed.
So, when my parents went to the Czech Republic and found the birth book for the town of Putschirn, they were excited to find the birth record for Anna Rosina Ott, but perplexed that there was no record of a twin sister, Anna Marie Ott (or for any other sister who was not a twin, for that matter).
When reading the birth record, my parents figured out that it said that Anna Rosina Ott was an illegitimate child. And there was an extra note written below the birth record that explained that Anna Rosina was “legitimized” by the marriage of her father, Josef Ott, to her mother on 22 September 1874 (1 month and 12 days after Anna Rosina was born).
They started wondering why Anna Marie Ott wouldn’t have appeared in the records – if she was Anna Rosina’s twin, she would have been right there on the same page. And the German Catholic records are so extensive, that it’s highly unlikely that they would have recorded the birth of one twin, and accidentally omitted the other twin. So, we got to thinking that maybe Anna Marie Ott really was Anna Rosina Ott. But why would she tell her granddaughter-in-law (my Grandma Bev) and other family members that she had a twin sister? The only possible reason we could think of for creating a story like that was that maybe she was attempting to hide the fact that she was born out of wedlock, by changing her name from the one on the record that said she was illegitimate (although, if this were the case, logically she would have told people that the illegitimate child was an older sister, because if a twin sister is illegitimate, then the other twin would be too). But there is clearly no twin listed in the records. Even stillborn children were recorded in these birth books, so there would really be no reason to have the records for only one twin. But we just can’t really figure out any really good reason for her to have created a story like that. So, I guess for now, I will continue to list Anna Marie Ott and her twin sister, Anna Rosina Ott, in my genealogy file, until (if) we ever find anything more conclusive to prove that there was or was not a sister.
We have a rather interesting conundrum with my 2nd great grandmother, Anna Marie Ott Spohr, and her sister, Anna Rosina Ott. From our family history that was passed down through the family, we knew that Anna Marie was a twin. Anna Marie came here to the United States, but I always wondered if her twin sister, Anna Rosina, stayed in Europe, or may have possibly also come to America. And before Anna Marie had my great grandfather, Carl John Spohr, she had twin boys who were stillborn. (I always wondered about the possibility of me having twins, since I knew that twins ran on both my mother’s and my father’s side of the family – with the Otts and Spohrs on my mom’s side; and with my dad’s father, John Leo Chidester, being a twin himself – and on Michael’s side of the family, with his uncles being twins). And my mom said that her mother, Beverly Monk Spohr, specifically remembers Anna Marie Ott Spohr (who she and my grandpa both referred to as ‘Grandma Spohr’) telling her that she was a twin herself, and that she also had twins.
When I was first starting to do genealogy years ago, I remember finding different spellings and name variations for Anna Marie’s and her twin sister’s names on handwritten family notes. At one point I had recorded that one sister was named Anna Marie, and the other was named Marie Anna. And another spelling I found for the twin sister’s name was Anna Rosean. But when I found the old German records at my grandparent’s house, I knew I had found the correct spelling for my great, great grandmother’s twin sister’s name, it was very clearly written on an official birth/baptismal certificate: Anna Rosina Ott. And her birth date was the same as Anna Marie’s, so it had to be her, the twin sister. It didn’t seem odd, either, that my family had this birth certificate, even though Anna Rosina was not our direct ancestor, because they also had a similar birth certificate for Franz Josef Ott, Anna’s younger brother. So it was reasonable that they kept copies of the birth certificates of their siblings. Unfortunately, there wasn’t a birth certificate for Anna Marie, and I just figured that her certificate had been lost or destroyed.
So, when my parents went to the Czech Republic and found the birth book for the town of Putschirn, they were excited to find the birth record for Anna Rosina Ott, but perplexed that there was no record of a twin sister, Anna Marie Ott (or for any other sister who was not a twin, for that matter).
When reading the birth record, my parents figured out that it said that Anna Rosina Ott was an illegitimate child. And there was an extra note written below the birth record that explained that Anna Rosina was “legitimized” by the marriage of her father, Josef Ott, to her mother on 22 September 1874 (1 month and 12 days after Anna Rosina was born).
They started wondering why Anna Marie Ott wouldn’t have appeared in the records – if she was Anna Rosina’s twin, she would have been right there on the same page. And the German Catholic records are so extensive, that it’s highly unlikely that they would have recorded the birth of one twin, and accidentally omitted the other twin. So, we got to thinking that maybe Anna Marie Ott really was Anna Rosina Ott. But why would she tell her granddaughter-in-law (my Grandma Bev) and other family members that she had a twin sister? The only possible reason we could think of for creating a story like that was that maybe she was attempting to hide the fact that she was born out of wedlock, by changing her name from the one on the record that said she was illegitimate (although, if this were the case, logically she would have told people that the illegitimate child was an older sister, because if a twin sister is illegitimate, then the other twin would be too). But there is clearly no twin listed in the records. Even stillborn children were recorded in these birth books, so there would really be no reason to have the records for only one twin. But we just can’t really figure out any really good reason for her to have created a story like that. So, I guess for now, I will continue to list Anna Marie Ott and her twin sister, Anna Rosina Ott, in my genealogy file, until (if) we ever find anything more conclusive to prove that there was or was not a sister.
Anna Rosina Ott
Czech Birth Records, Book VI Putschirn, page 68
Photographs IMG_0511 through IMG_0522, IMG_0608 through IMG_0614
Photographs of birth records taken by Steven and Amy Chidester in the Czech Republic in February 2008 (copies of photographs in the possession of Stephanie Chidester Bradshaw). Translated on 20 May 2008 by Sister Frieda Kindt who offered a weekly German translation service at the family history center in the Milwaukee first ward building of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in Brookfield, Wisconsin. Transcribed by Stephanie Bradshaw.
"Born 10 August 1874, Baptized 10 August 1874, [name of pastor], name of child: Anna Rosina, Catholic, Female, Illegitimate,
Note in Latin: Legitimized per marriage of father, see Putschirn VII page 8.
Note in German: Josef Ott is well known and it is recorded that he is the father of the child. Graslitz on 22 September 1874. [signed by the pastor and witnesses,] Robert Ott witness, Alois Dörr witness.
Father: Josef Ott miller and carpenter (house builder) born in Kohling Number 69 old/8 new, legitimate son of the deceased Ignaz Ott cottager in Kohling Number 19 and Johanna born Meisner in Kohling Number 29.
Note: Josef Ott child's father.
Mother: Anna Strunz born in Imligau Number 8, Elbogen district, daughter of the deceased Anton Strunz, cottager and day laborer in Putschirn Number 15 and Katharina born Möckl of Imligau. Witnesses: Rosina Behm housewife of Franz Böhm, day laborer in Putschirn."
Czech Birth Records, Book VI Putschirn, page 68
Photographs IMG_0511 through IMG_0522, IMG_0608 through IMG_0614
Photographs of birth records taken by Steven and Amy Chidester in the Czech Republic in February 2008 (copies of photographs in the possession of Stephanie Chidester Bradshaw). Translated on 20 May 2008 by Sister Frieda Kindt who offered a weekly German translation service at the family history center in the Milwaukee first ward building of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in Brookfield, Wisconsin. Transcribed by Stephanie Bradshaw.
"Born 10 August 1874, Baptized 10 August 1874, [name of pastor], name of child: Anna Rosina, Catholic, Female, Illegitimate,
Note in Latin: Legitimized per marriage of father, see Putschirn VII page 8.
Note in German: Josef Ott is well known and it is recorded that he is the father of the child. Graslitz on 22 September 1874. [signed by the pastor and witnesses,] Robert Ott witness, Alois Dörr witness.
Father: Josef Ott miller and carpenter (house builder) born in Kohling Number 69 old/8 new, legitimate son of the deceased Ignaz Ott cottager in Kohling Number 19 and Johanna born Meisner in Kohling Number 29.
Note: Josef Ott child's father.
Mother: Anna Strunz born in Imligau Number 8, Elbogen district, daughter of the deceased Anton Strunz, cottager and day laborer in Putschirn Number 15 and Katharina born Möckl of Imligau. Witnesses: Rosina Behm housewife of Franz Böhm, day laborer in Putschirn."
And following is the birth certificate that our family had for Anna Rosina Ott – I believe that the Czech birth registry books were the original birth records, and that the certificates were copied from the information in the books. So, it’s not surprising that this certificate gives us no new information after looking at the birth book.
German family document 008
Spohr family documents in the possession of Beverly Monk Spohr of Lee’s Summit, Missouri as of 2006. Scanned copies of the documents are in possession of Stephanie Chidester Bradshaw [numbers were assigned to each document by Stephanie Bradshaw in order to keep track of which translated was related to which document]. Translated on 14 February 2007 by Sister Gonhild Stefano who offered a weekly German translation service at the family history center in the Milwaukee first ward building of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in Brookfield, Wisconsin. Transcribed by Stephanie Bradshaw.
“N. Exh. 225 main office of the area:
Karl
District:
[Stamped 1888] Putschirn
Baptism
Looking at the document from 1888 we find in the birth and baptism document for Putschirn book/volume VI page 68 certified, that
Anna Rosina Ott
The daughter of the couple Josef Ott, Miller and Carpenter: born in Kohling no. 68 old/6 new, son of Ignaz Ott living in Kohling no. 69 and Johanna born Meisner from Kohling, and Anna born Strunz born in Imligau no. 8 district Elbogen, married daughter of Anton Strunz living in Putschirn no. 15 and of Katharina born Mockl in Imligau.
on 10 August 1874
one thousand eight hundred and seventy four
in Putschirn no. 15
born in the church of Zettlitz on 10 August from Constantine Winter, chaplain of the Catholic church baptized her. And the godmother Rosina Behm the wife of the worker [paid by the day] Franz Behm and the witness was Anna Warzberger proved midwife in Altrohlau.
Certificates of those and the signature of those that did this and next to it the seal of the priest.
Given by the priest of Zettlitz
on 14 April 1890
[stamped and signed by the chaplain]
printed and sealed at _pis Warnsdorf”
Spohr family documents in the possession of Beverly Monk Spohr of Lee’s Summit, Missouri as of 2006. Scanned copies of the documents are in possession of Stephanie Chidester Bradshaw [numbers were assigned to each document by Stephanie Bradshaw in order to keep track of which translated was related to which document]. Translated on 14 February 2007 by Sister Gonhild Stefano who offered a weekly German translation service at the family history center in the Milwaukee first ward building of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in Brookfield, Wisconsin. Transcribed by Stephanie Bradshaw.
“N. Exh. 225 main office of the area:
Karl
District:
[Stamped 1888] Putschirn
Baptism
Looking at the document from 1888 we find in the birth and baptism document for Putschirn book/volume VI page 68 certified, that
Anna Rosina Ott
The daughter of the couple Josef Ott, Miller and Carpenter: born in Kohling no. 68 old/6 new, son of Ignaz Ott living in Kohling no. 69 and Johanna born Meisner from Kohling, and Anna born Strunz born in Imligau no. 8 district Elbogen, married daughter of Anton Strunz living in Putschirn no. 15 and of Katharina born Mockl in Imligau.
on 10 August 1874
one thousand eight hundred and seventy four
in Putschirn no. 15
born in the church of Zettlitz on 10 August from Constantine Winter, chaplain of the Catholic church baptized her. And the godmother Rosina Behm the wife of the worker [paid by the day] Franz Behm and the witness was Anna Warzberger proved midwife in Altrohlau.
Certificates of those and the signature of those that did this and next to it the seal of the priest.
Given by the priest of Zettlitz
on 14 April 1890
[stamped and signed by the chaplain]
printed and sealed at _pis Warnsdorf”
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